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Hot Threads: The Change In Beer Money, Super Cena Get Del Rio'd, Trending With Michael Cole, The Muppets Take New York, and More
By Corey Letson
Nov 3, 2011 - 11:42 AM

It's time for another look at the free Wrestling Insanity Message Boards, with your host, "The Great White Dope" Corey Letson ...


Welcome one and all to the weekly "Best of" The World Wrestling Insanity Message Boards. Here at Hot Threads we aim to give you the cream of the crop when it comes to our fabulous residents. We'll be spending time jumping from the WWE to TNA to almost anything in the 'verse.


This jam-packed edition of Hot Threads is going to start off in TNA land.   Please note that there will be a pretty gigantic spoiler in this section. So if you haven't read what is going down with TNA in the next few weeks and don't want it ruined you need to skip this gigantic portion. Needless to say Mike Johns and Matt Dawgs have gone into this without spoiler warnings and some raw feelings. How do the rest of our forum members feel about this big event? (Note: If you want to avoid gigantic spoilers scroll down until after the italics.)



While I do agree that TNA isn't the best product right now, I think they are trying to get better. The whole thing with Roode/Angle/Storm and the TNA title was done poorly though. No uxcuse for Storm to win it the impact after BFG AFTER Bobby Roode was given all of that build up.



Actually, if it hadn't been a last-second change behind-the-scenes, I'd be all for this storyline. It worked beautifully with ROH when Davey Richards couldn't beat Roderick Strong and then his tag-team partner Eddie Edwards ended up winning the title in a face vs. face storyline...this has the potential to be built-up the exact same way if done correctly.

But knowing this was a day-of-PPV change (or the day before), I doubt that TNA has the ability to pull off that type of storyline with that type of drama.



I really hope they build an angle with Storm keeping the belt for a while and not just giving it back to Angle or giving it to Hardy.


Mike Johns

For all the ballyhoo, the one match anyone would possibly want to see following the situation is being rushed to TV with no story attached to it at all.


James Bullock

Robert Roode defeated James Storm​ at tonight's Impact Taping to win the TNA World Title. Roode turned heel, nailing Storm with a beer bottle to win.



What a f**king waste of a potentially great storyline. 100% NOT surprised,'s like TNA to hot-shot this.


The Green Teabagger

There went potentially months of compelling storyline and good television.



By now, you should know that TNA is terrified by this prospect....


Mike Johns

at least you guys are mad about this for the right reasons. Tweeps are just blasting this left and right



This stupid f**king company....


Aaron Wood

OK, I can't even muster the energy to type this all out for this company, so imagine that I have typed "BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA" for so long that it would take literally a half hour to read said text of my laughing.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have the energy to do it because I've only just woken up. If this were later in my day and I was fully compos mentis, I'd be typing that f**ker out. Once again, TNA is great comedy.



So I was wrong. Even after this gigantic section you're going to have to go just a little further. Congratulations on making it this far. I personally am impressed with your ability to avoid spoilers for TNA. I hope this works out for you and when you watch it you get entertainment out of it. Free tip, try doing the same thing with movies. Go to a movie and NEVER watch a trailer for it. You're actual experience in the theater will be 100% more enjoyable. You'll be that dick that is laughing at the moment everyone else has seen a hundred times over.

Anyways I got off topic there. So we'll be jumping into another chapter of the same story. Again, if you want to avoid spoilers for the next few weeks of TNA television keep yourself going until the italics end.


James Bullock

Oh, and it just keeps getting better.

Quote: click to toggle

Week 2 Taping: Rematch Storm vs Roode. Storm got jumped backstage but match still on...Storm hobbles out then dives at Roode then collapses...ref throws X and everyone looks concerned. AJ and Kaz out, Roode tries to help up Storm then rolls him up for pin and dives out. AJ challenges him for Turning Point and Sting makes the match.



Aaron Wood

It looks like the angle is going to be (according to the Meltzerator):

Meltzer: click to toggle

They are going to pull Storm from TV for "some time" (possibly as far as Lockdown next year) while they run with Roode as champion and then bring Storm back for matches. So essentially, they shot their wad prematurely but also seem to have something of a long-term plan.

The kicker for this next PPV, that main event isn't made until the end of the go-home show. Can anyone say 6000 buys if lucky?



Listen...I'm 100% behind the storyline itself. I'm just absolutely flabbergasted at the speed that they're blowing through this shit.



Aaron Wood

Yeah, the angle is perfectly sound. It's the manner in which it's come about that is galling.


Mike Johns

Sound... in theory.

It's a good idea. But not only is it the speed that worries me, but I'm dreading the actual execution. If they do it well, and I have zero faith that they will, the speed could be justified. The whole thing could be justified if they do it well. IF.

I think people are so pissed off about this because they've been burned so many times by this company that unless they do everything by the book, Booking 101, AND have it be about anyone other than a former WWE guy, they're not going to accept anything.

Honestly, I just don't care anymore. Maybe it'll be good. I hope it is. But, if it's not, what am I going to do? Write a bad review? Don't I always?


The Chosen 1

This just reeks of no real thought. Just a HEY LETS DO THIS and going with it. I don't believe for asecond this was always the plan because they would have done more Bobby-Storm stuff before the PPV

If your storyline isn't directly involving Hogan you don't get long builds or the most attention.

Oh and until they actually keep Storm off air for a long time while still building interest to the point that when Storm returns it's a big deal then the feud plays out in an enjoyable and interesting way... I don't believe it.. This is the same company that cant stick to one direction for 3 months let alone March. I fully expect them to run out of ideas in a month or two, maybe in January for the new year and when they say Roode isn't working as champion hotshot a Storm return as a surprise challenger for the belt on the same episode of Impact the match is announced on... From there Roode loses gets one rematch on PPV before it morphs into something else.... and a month after that they reform Beer Money as heels then the next month Storm turns on Roode making Bobby the good guy now.... Before eventually Storm saves Roode from a beatdown and reforms Beer Money as babyfaces again and we end up right where we were before the bfg tournament ever happened


Mike Johns

I am so goddamned confused right now, I don't know why I bother.



I'm not sure I read the thread right.

Did Storm pin Roode? Did he win the title?
How the f**k does AJ get the nex title shot?
Why are they pulling Storm?



Legit question: Don't TNA wrestlers get paid per appearance? And aren't they not allowed to do indy shows anymore? Unless TNA gets a huge cut or something? How the hell is Storm going to pay legit life bills/costs without getting paid?


Aaron Wood

Guys of James Storm's level will be under contract with some sort of downside or guaruntee (if for nothing else than to prevent WWE poaching them), so he'll continue to get paid while he's "out". Not saying it'll be great money, or even enough, but he'll be getting something decent. I'd imagine they sell a ton of Beer Money merch as well, which will help. Indeed, I'd expect a sale on that now, I suppose.

It's the scrubs like the lower-level X guys and the women who are on "per appearance".



I think TNA has done too much damage to their PPVs that even when they do a decent build up it still fails miserably.

Sad thing is, I think even if (and that's a big if) TNA did start doing everything right, it's probably too late for them to have a turnaround. There comes a point when you can do too much damage, and I think they're there.



Wasn't that an unexpected amount of TNA conversation? The one thing I find funny is if anything in this business is cyclical (answer: probably not) it is TNA.  How so? Well, it just so happens I have a bachelor's degree in Pro Wrestling Theory and Application. It is a prestigious degree and I would love to share with you my award winning thesis. (Fun Fact: This thesis somehow almost got me a job at TNA. Instead, I chose WWI. Somehow I see myself as winning in this scenario.)



As you can see we were in stage one and two leading up to Bound for Glory. Right after Bound for Glory we quickly kicked it into Stage 3-A. Which at this point has led half the audience straight into Stage 4, while others stay and wait in Stage 3-A.   I'd say the approximate re-start of Stage 1 is around February/March '12.


While some people see some writers and forum goers of WWI as "pro-WWE" there were some interesting talks over the past week. Vengeance was last Sunday and it brought with it a fair amount of discussion on the John Cena front. Sure, what else would anyone else talk about when it comes to WWE? What's the problem with John Cena? Well, to put it simply, John Cena wins. Yes, the problem is that John Cena wins. But when John Cena loses he doesn't lose clean. John Cena can't be beat without cheating. This past Sunday at Vengeance John Cena fought Alberto Del Rio in a No-DQ Last Man Standing Match. While I try to keep my own comments out of this column I feel they are needed for this particular segment. Let's check in and see why Alberto Del Rio winning was complete crap...apparently.



Ok so....everybody always complains about Cena winning all the time and how the Super-Cena thing is annoying. They want him to be able to be beaten clean. So when Cena does lose clean, in convincing fashion to Alberto Del Rio people then bitch that Del Rio won clean.

What does everybody actually want from WWE when it comes to Cena? Because when you get what you think it's bullshit. When you get what you don't want you ask for the thing you got last night that you think is bullshit now.


James Bullock

Unless it's nothing short of a crucifixtion, I don't think anyone will be happy. But would that mean Cena would come back in three days and be more powerful than before?


E.G. Woods

Could it be because he didn't lose in clean and in convincing fashion?



It's easily one of the most back-and-forth matches Cena has had in LMS or I Quit matches. He beat Del Rio down but Del Rio convincingly beat him down throughout the match. From throwing him into the set, throwing the set on top of him, and just regular beating on him. Did Cena get his shots in? Yes.

Del Rio hit the final blow without anybody helping. Did Miz&R-Truth come in? Yes, but Cena got up from that. Del Rio took it to Cena and stood toe-to-toe with the guy in "his match". Cena chose the match and Del Rio beat him in it without trickery. He didn't tie his feet down, lock him in a car. He knocked Cena out cold for 10 seconds.

He did the thing people have bitched about not happening to Cena for the last 20 I quit/LMS matches he has been part of.

So I ask again, what do you actually want from WWE on the Cena front? Is it a 5-minute squash were Cena doesn't even get a move off and just loses? Is it a convincing back-and-forth that sees the Challenger beat Cena clean (which in a No-DQ match happened last night. it is no DQ...weapons are part of the match...Cena would've won with a weapon too. He does in all LMS matches). Or do you want Del Rio to tie Cena to a ringpost beat him with a sinapore cane for 20 minutes for Cena to hulk-up and win in the last minute with little offense?

Because if you want the middle one, which people have been saying they've wanted for awhile, you got it last night....then complaining about it.


E.G. Woods

If Cena lost "clean", then Truth, Miz, or any WWE wrestler wouldn't have had a hand in the finish. Yeah, Cena kicked out from their interference and went down due to ADR's belt shot. However, how much do you want to bet tonight on Raw that Truth and Miz's interference is brought up ad nauseum as the reason Del Rio retained, thus giving Cena his out for losing?


Aaron Wood

Cena lost pretty clean last night. As noted, that wasn't the finish. Cena overcame that beating. It was Del Rio who hit the kill shot.

And yeah, it's an "out" for losing the match, but sure as shit that's what you do with your top guys that you don't want to beat. Hell, the ring implosion was the ultimate "out" for Henry & Big Show, neither of whom should have been beaten last night and neither were.

And it sets up Survivor Series, because in all likelihood given those are the top guys on RAW, that would be the match anyway. So why not actually have something of a storyline as to why the teams are as they are, if not advancing an already existing one.


E.G. Woods

I wouldn't have had a problem with Miz and Truth's interference if it was earlier in the contest, and not right before the finish. There were/are better ways to set up The S.S. Match.

And Aaron; You said it was an out for Cena, but that's what you want to do with your top guys you don't want to beat. Well, that's my point. Cena hardly ever loses, letalone loses clean. If he did, I wouldn't have said word one. That's why I didn't have a problem with Henry/Show ending the way it did.


Aaron Wood

Heels only go over clean as a sheet when they are moving onto a new foe and another babyface is being lined up. Hence why Beth's clean win over Eve was somewhat confusing in this match, because if they plan on doing more matches with Eve, she had no real reason to get another shot without establishing her.

That's why Nattie popped Kelly in the head for the title change Because they had a couple more matches to go with it. So unless they're going back to Kelly, there's no reason why Eve lost as clean as she did.

That's why when Austin lost matches it was RARE that he took a completely clean loss. Same with Taker. Same with HHH. Same with Rock to an extent, although he was always a bit more willing to put guys over so cleanly.

That's the thing, people talk of "Super Cena" as if it's anything like a new phenomenon. It's far from it. Hell, that thinking wasn't even close to new when it was Hogan on top, and far "worse" in terms of not winning matches than Cena is.



I think it's simply because people are fed up of seeing Cena in pretty much every main event/WWE title match.

It might help if WWE could actually build some other babyface stars and could drop Cena into other feuds, without shitting their pants that they might lose out on his merchandise revenue by not having him on top.

Could you imagine Cena doing for Cody what Orton did?


The Chosen 1

Punk..... Sheamus..... Edge.......


Rowdy Rodimus

Punk: The biggest star in wrestling at the time (before they neutered him to bring back the McHelmahons)
Sheamus: HHH's buddy, also looked like he got lucky when Cena "slipped" in their tables match
Edge: One of the top guys in wrestling at the time and the hottest heel going

They are dead set against anyone beating Cena without a built in excuse, hell, even when Carlito beat him years ago they made the excuse that Carlito had him stabbed in a nightclub.


The Chosen 1


You cannot say that Edge & CM Punk don't count because they were the hottest things going.... They were the hottest thing going BECAUSE WWE booked them that way. Don't start thinking that Punk getting over was 100% Punk because if he could just get over like that why did it take WWE getting behind him to do it? Why wasn't Punk the hottest property in the world when he was leading Nexus? Don't forget WWE LET Punk sit on that ramp and "shoot".

And WHY would WWE put someone over Cena who ISN'T Hot? Why would they take someone who's not a rising star or getting over and put them over Cena.... what would be the point? Why would they take someone who has no momentum or fan interest and put them over their #1 GUY in the company?

And you cannot say Sheamus doesn't count because he is HHH's friend either. Because who cares? The powerful guy with pull in the company vouched for him and so they built him up as a top guy... that's how pro wrestling works. Someone in charge has to believe in you. HHH believed in Sheamus. They don't go way back, this isn't a clique thing, HHH liked Sheamus and thought he had what it took to be a star.. there's really nothing wrong with that.

So what you're saying is that WWE needs to take someone they might not be sure about, someone low on the card who they've never go behind but might maybe have what it takes if given the chance, and instead of building him up first, and just beat Cena with no build or anything and giving Cena no excuse for a loss.



My only problem with the finish was this, Cena had already been beaten up pretty badly by Del Rio before Awesome Truth (I was the first to use that name btw, just check my Twitter timeline) interfered and gave Cena their finishers. That he got up from at the 8-9 count. Then Del Rio clocks him in the head with the belt and falls out of the ring, Del Rio sold that for an 8 count and barely could support himself on the railing. Whereas Cena, after taking two finishers from a former WWE Champion and a former US Champ (who we are supposed to take seriously as dangerous men and had beaten HHH and Punk earlier in the night) and a shot to the head from the title belt, jumps up after the 10 count.

It was basically the same as no-selling the moves. Sure he "lost" the match but he came out looking stronger than Del Rio who came across looking like he just got lucky. Then again, that's just my opinion and that is also kind of soured on WWE's entire product lately.

But once again, if this had been the ending to a TNA PPV or title match, the IWC would be screaming about how they screwed over whoever but since it's WWE they get the benefit of the doubt. When does WWE's good faith run out?


The Green Teabagger

ADR's a heel. He's not supposed to win clean.

I don't give a shit if Miz, Truth, Punk, Nash, Johnny Ace, Shane Douglas, Shawn Michaels, Mark Henry, Hornswaggle, Hogan, Flair, Eddie Guerrero's ghost, Rey Misterio, Sin Cara Azul, Sin Cara Negra, a red Sin Cara, a green Sin Cara, Wade Barrett, David Otunga, Santino Marella, the entire ROH roster, Zack Ryder, Heath Slater, Jim Ross, Stone Cold, The Rock, Mick Foley, Cactus Jack, Mankind, Dude Love, Stevie Richards AS Dude Love, Terry Funk, David Arquette, Vince Russo, Vince McMahon, Jeff Jarrett, and the entire San Antonio Spurs roster came down there and all took turns hitting Cena with a chair, kicking him in the nuts, and then pissing on him.

That was as close to a clean win as ADR is ever going to get in a LMS match against John f'ing Cena, and it was GOOD.

And of course Cena was back on his feet at 10 1/2, did we expect anything else if we expected ADR to win?


E.G. Woods

See Mark Henry, and what the clean wins over Randy Orton has done for his WHC reign. Cena is at a point in his career where he can afford to do clean jobs here and there, and not lose any of his popularity. Have to build up some of your top heels as credible, in ring threats, not just chicken shits all the time, or the fans aren't going to take any of them seriously.



Yeah, wow. That is an interesting conversation of character arch-types. The floodgates opened on that thing quick. But now we have two final WWE things to go over before this is all said and done. First, Twitter. Do you know of it? Do you use it? Do you follow me and my interesting mid-west insights? (@ThisCoreyLetson) Do you think it's a problem WWE mentions it fifty different times a show? Did you know "trending topic" isn't that big of a deal? I mean, seriously, if one thousand people all tweet about the same thing at the same time that topic will trend. WWE has a dedicated fan base. It isn't that hard to get something to trend. Three million people watch Raw and three thousand of them like to #WooWooWoo...that will trend.


Aaron Wood

If you don't like the Twitter stuff, then I'm sorry to say, that it's going to be here for quite some time if PWI's free news section is to be believed.

It's reporting that the deal with the pushing of Twitter so ferociously these last few shows is quite possibly a cross-promotion deal with Twitter itself, as Twitter have indicated to personalities and companies to push Twitter in return for bumping up search results ladders and such.


Peter Dawson

WWE does have a lot of things that annoy people right now, including one annoying as hell commentator, one insane commentator, one top guy a decent percentage of people seem to dislike (again, twitter did end up trending 'WE HATE CENA' worldwide Monday night, and it was ranked like 4th overall for at least an hour), general complaints about interesting storylines turning to toilet pizza and people annoyed about how convoluted the control of the company plot has been getting.


Aaron Wood

It's almost all Meltzer and Alvarez talked about on their show earlier to the point of parody, and I've seen rumbling of consternation over the last couple of nights about the over-push of Twitter.



The demographic that PG television is aimed at is all over this Twitter stuff like stink.
People like Meltzer, Alvarez, and 90% of the online forum go-ers are NOT in that demographic.
NOBODY seems to realize that when they complain.
Good for WWE. Jump on social media and try to do some cross-promotion. Why the hell SHOULDN'T they?


E.G. Woods

I don't think people care about whether or not they are in the demo The WWE is targeting right now. That doesn't mean they/we have to like it, or that we can't complain about it.



Grasp that.

If you don't like WWE's use of Twitter and think it takes away from their overall product, then don't watch it. There are a lot of wrestling alternatives out there that aren't using social media in an effort to connect with younger, newer fans.


Nevermind. Complain away.


E.G. Woods

O.K., let me see if I get this straight; You're angry simply because the pundits and a great deal of online fans have been complaining how bad The WWE's overall product is, correct? If so, then take your own advice and don't pay attention to, read, etc., what the WWE-non demo haters have to say. It's that simple. Why is it so (apparently) important that everyone has to agree with you?

And I have no problem with The WWE's use of Twitter up until last night. What I have a problem of is them mentioning it every other frickin segment ad nauseum.


E.G. Woods

What I get is that your a WWE apologist. If it's not the tired "You don't like it, don't watch it" line to guard against criticisim, it's you coming on here a couple of weeks ago to rub Raw's 3.2 number in everyone's faces that thought the walkout was stupid, yet left out they had the biggest 2nd hour drop-off in 4 years. Like I said, I don't care. Go flip out on Meltzer, Alvarez, and Powell for their criticisim over last night's show and WWE's absurd use of Twitter. I mean, they had no right to do so, since their obviously not in WWE's demo, right?


The Chosen 1

Statements like this are what I hate about ANTI-WWE people...and just a lot of ANTI-anything people on the internet.

If they see someone say anything pro-WWE they say that that person is just all up WWE's ass and is so wrong and just a WWE "fanboy"... hell this entire site gets flak for that sometimes simply because most people associated with WWI think that TNA is unwatchable. So simply because they say anti-TNA things they get labeled as having a Pro-WWE agenda.

Check out my join date. 2005. I've been here seen Day #1. Which means I've seen and heard a whole hell of what ZAH has had to say about WWE, TNA, ROH, WSX, and every other little wrestling company on the planet.... so I know for a fact that ZAH is not just pro-WWE just because he's pro-WWE.. I've heard him hate things that WWE does, love things WWE has done and just not care about other things they have done...

To label someone a "WWE Apologist" simply because they two times you've seen them say anything about WWE in 3 weeks have been 1. telling you that even if you thought the walk out was stupid it pulled in a good rating for WWE and 2. that complaining about Twitter makes no sense because you are not taking into consideration that it's probably going over well with the people that WWE are doing it for..................

is stupid and bullshit.



So to recap, not every product people enjoy is 100% enjoyed because no product-creator is that gifted, the defense of "don't like, don't watch" is a logical fallacy, and people have the right to complain so long we're clear that it isn't the new-fangled marketing that we hate but how often and repeatedly they're name dropping it to the point that it might as well be the new name of a repeated move like a drop-kick or a boot to the head. Also, people hate the term 'WWE Apologist' about as much as most people hate the person they're arguing with who was the first to resort ot shouting as 'kid.'



Just my 2 cents as a former ''WWE apologist,''

I'm currently in pursuit of a Bachelor's degree in Communications & Media Studies with a concentration in Sports Media at Salisbury University in Salisbury, Maryland. Now, I'm only in my junior year of my undergrad so I'm not suggesting I know it all, but if there's one thing I do know it's that the internet and social media is the undeniable future of our planet--PERIOD! Twitter & Facebook, neither are going anywhere any time soon. So, FACT, utilizing these invaluable social media outlets as marketing tools
IS an intelligent move on the WWE's part.

Will this new marketing strategy likely alienate some older viewers? Absolutely, to most it's a new technology and as such, adaptation will take time. No different than the transition from vinyl to CD, VHS to DVD, or even outdoor to indoor plumbing, it's just going to take time for everyone to catch up, catch on, and change with the times.

Despite the fact that they're unfamiliar to some, social networks like Twitter and Facebook have HUGE relative advantage. They're low cost, low maintenance, and time efficient. And every facet of them is completely and totally measurable. As users access these sites and operate them, their every move is monitored thus providing MAJOR consumer intel. Considering the tens-of-millions of users on Twitter and Facebook every minute of every day, as a business owner, how do you resist? don't!

The WWE is not alone. Every major television network and brand in the world is using social media right now for all its worth.

More than anything, I find it ironic that the WWE is now utilizing Twitter, Facebook, and the internet. Think about it, for years the WWE has mocked, undermined, and largely ignored the internet and its audience--and now, almost behind the curve, they want nothing more than for it and us to be their friends and pad their pockets. Funny how shit works sometimes, no?

The sad part is, we fans... we're a forgiving bunch. In fact, we'd love nothing more than to forgive them and fork over all the money we have left in our wallets just to be entertained by them one last time, only, there's a problem...


The problem isn't Twitter or Facebook, it's the fact that the WWE and the people running it are old themselves and are completely and totally out of touch. And what truly sucks is that they have the internet--they have all this new technology like Twitter and Facebook--and they have all the talent and resources in the world, but not one goddamn clue how to use any of it!

Instead of using the internet to spark heat between wrestlers, gauge potential stars, or to generate any interest in anything with the prospect of making money, they're using it for pointless shit like making J.R. look like a total jackass, non-drawing Diva angles, and plugging their next underwhelming, crap-tastic, straight-to-DVD movie. It's pathetic!

Watching Raw anymore is like watching a primate operate a car... sure, it's funny for a bit, but after a while it just becomes sad. Because the fact of the matter is, the car's eventually going to crash and burn, and, ultimately, after he's done dancing around on fire for ten minutes, the clueless caveman's going to die.

Call me what you will... another apologist, another cynic, all I know is that I'm fed up and ready for a change.



It doesn't bother me at all that they are using Twitter and such and I basically hate everything WWE has been doing the last few months. Hell, I said not to long ago on Twitter that a great money making thing woud be to come up with a top social media site and then charge WWE or TNA to use it for angles and stuff. Besides that, WWE and TNA could come to an agreement to use Twitter or Facebook to start a feud between the two of them, free of charge and get back some of the lost fans of the Monday Night Wars era.


Aaron Wood

The WWE aren't after the IWC with all this Twitter stuff. They want their casual audience who are going to the likes of and have likely never heard of to engage with Twitter and them on it, almost as an extension of itself. As noted in the news section, PWInsider reported that it's very likely to be a business partnership between WWE and Twitter that's driving this "overpush" in recent shows. So it's in WWE's interests, if that is the case, to drive these casual fans to Twitter or Facebook if they don't already so happen to have an account already.

If the IWC come along for the ride anyway, meh. We're already there with them.


Mike Johns

See, I always figured WWE was pimping this because they realized "Hey, people actually use this thing to talk about us! Maybe we should, you know... encourage that." I don't see it as a problem, I just think, like you've all been saying, they're not using it particularly well.

My only addition to this is that they just haven't figured out a way to really capitalize on it yet, because, really, no one has. It's still a relatively new medium that's got a buzz right now and may not even last (much the way MySpace has tanked in the wake of facebook's growing popularity). By the time anyone does figure it out, it may be too late. In the meantime, it's good that they're at least trying something. After all, it'll only prepare them for whatever the next big social media deal is. They missed the bus on MySpace completely, so the fact they're even here at all should say something good, right?

As for cross-promoting with Twitter... why not? I would. Most of you would. It's someone paying you to encourage folks to type feedback in 140 characters or less. Money, publicity, and seeming to come off as socially relevant is a win-win-win situation for all involved. Plus, it's not like folks weren't already using it to talk about WWE anyway.

The really sad thing was that TNA was almost 2 years ahead of WWE in this regard and pissed it away almost completely.


You're welcome for this novel I've brought to you. This late into the game I'm going to admit that this Hot Threads is a Super-Sized edition. Guess what? WE'RE NOT DONE YET! That is right we have one final stop to make. This past Monday the WWE brought some super-special guest hosts to Raw. This brought out two different groups.

Group #1: We like The Muppets and find their interaction with the WWE wrestlers, something else we like, will be enjoyable and pretty awesome.

Group #2: This should not be happening in the context of the WWE Universe.



WWE's Muppet segments weren't bad at all, and other than the whole Beaker-Santino thing didn't do anything to disrupt a match but Santino is a running comedy gimmick so even that was okay in a vacuum.

I'm not a Muppets fan the same way AW or others are but you knew going in that they were going to have interaction between Muppet and wrestler like Muppets do with humans in 'normal' human-Muppet interaction, a la pretending they're real. It's not that bad. Does it have a place in wrestling shows? Probably not, but for what it was it was fine.



I do think the Muppet bits were funny for the most part. It was simple PG fun and wasn't painful compared to... oh just off the top of my head, the A-Team segment from 2010. Plus we still got quite a few matches and a couple that were pretty good, the Big Show/Del Rio and Ziggler/Ryder in particular. Hell, I was stunned by the latter's quality. Dives to the outside, flapjacks into ring posts...



That's a good comparison, actually.

And yes...the Muppets were a lot more entertaining.


Mike Johns

For the record, I didn't give the Muppets a pass. Nor did JG or several other folks, here. AW's a fan, so... okay, he likes it. And the problem with that is...?

Look, I think this is pretty f**king stupid. My opinion. It's not what I want to see in a wrestling show, because, honestly, if I did, I'd be watching more CHIKARA. But some people really like it. It doesn't make them evil or stupid or whatever else. It just means they want something from a wrestling show that I don't.

Cheap Plug - it's kind of why I hold the "we need a shit-ton of promotions being successful and semi-mainstream, not just one or two, in order to keep the wrestling business going and keep the fanbase happy" philosophy (as recently blathered on about on Maverick Radio). Because the base is too big and too diverse for one company's philosophy to make everyone happy. Some want wrestling to be a fun kids show. Some want it to be a comic book. others, a sport. Others still, a freaking street fight. and so on and so forth. And NO WAY WWE or TNA is ever... EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVER... going to pull that off.


This topic was big enough that James Guttman put up a MUST HEAR audio on about the Muppets and Raw. That also brought some more voices into the conversation.


James Guttman

JG's Audio Insanity: Not My Business - An Epic Rant 34 Mins

You can't miss this audio. The Muppets invaded Raw and James Guttman is here with an epic rant about why he was against the idea from the start, being embarrassed before the show aired, what made it different than other celebrities hosting in character, the changing face of this business, the worst part of it all, DJ Kat vs. Jake Roberts, Mean Gene eating lunch, kids shows, Chuckie getting buried while the Muppets get praised, the moment in 2006 when wrestling went from tongue in cheek to ridiculous, Vince McMahon not liking the word wrestling, why it's his own fault, UFC is a work..., Kermit the Frog in a Rocky movie, and more. Plus, thoughts after watching the Bret vs.Shawn DVD and a spoiler on the person who really screwed Bret (and how it made JG smile), and more.


Canadian Bulldog

I agree with your points about The Muppets and how little sense it makes for them to appear in the context they did last night. But I will counter with this:

Wrestling, at least the way WWE presents it, isn't ABOUT preserving that alternate wrestling reality that we grew up believing in. I'm not saying that's right or that's wrong (actually, I'm saying that it's wrong), but for whatever reason, they've intentionally decided they're not about that anymore.

Why would do they do that? Who knows? Maybe some USA Network executive convinced them it would be okay to pretend Muppets exist. Maybe they said that instead of breaking the fourth wall, WWE should burrow even further into it. Or maybe Vince is trying to see how much they can get away with before the audience completely leaves?

Personally, I'm not upset about it, nor am I surprised. It's just the new normal in wrestling.


James Guttman

I actually agree with you. That's the point I make later on and what I think the big problem is. It's not that I feel they don't "get it". I just hate how they've created an atmosphere where it's the norm. Toward the end, I pinpoint the 2006 segment when it all began.


Canadian Bulldog

If I ever interviewed Vince McMahon, that's the one question I'd most want answered: What is your end game here? No matter how he answered, it would make for some really interesting insight.


The Chosen 1

I just wish they did stuff like this with some type of... I dunno... wink to the audience or something... some type of way of saying "Okay the Muppets part of the show is all bullshit, but this stuff is real"...

Don't try to play up Santino vs Swagger like a real match within the context of the universe, make it all out comedy, present it as if within the world of WWE Santino and Swagger are actually having a fake comedy match.

It's the difference between having the actors on Breaking Bad do an SNL skit in character with the muppets and having the exact same skit or scene play out on the actual show.


Mike Johns

I have to imagine that somewhere in the world right now, Jim Cornette has just uttered the phrase, "how the hell do they expect anyone to ever take them seriously again now that they've come out and treated Kermit the Frog like he was real?"

I've been with James on this since it was announced. If it was the WWE on the Muppets' Show, this would have been fine. But the Muppets on WWE's turf is like, when you watch Holiday Parades, or TV Specials, or award shows, where the Muppets are on, and they all just act like they're not puppets. We know it's bullshit. We know it's just some moron host talking to the Muppet because they think it'll do well with kids, or draw ratings, or whyever the hell they think Muppets make good award presenters. We know they're just there to promote some TV show or a movie. We know they're not real. Yet, "it's for the kids" or "it's the Holidays", or "it's fun" is the excuse.

You are now asking fans to take a product that, in cannon, claims that Sheamus and Beaker, a freaking PUPPET, are related, seriously. Or, at least seriously enough to pay to see two guys who don't like each other fight. You really think that's going to happen? Hell, most KIDS know the Muppets aren't real. Most KIDS know this episode is bullshit. You think KIDS are going to take Cena vs. God Knows Who seriously after they've palled around with puppets? Do you just think we're f**king stupid?!

CHIKARA does not ask you to suspend this much disbelief. CHIKARA. The Promotion where Anthropomorphic Ant Men and Evil Scientist Mantises fight Nordic Gods and European Fascists and Men Made of Ice Cream! Where Sara Del Rey is considered deadlier than the freaking Undertaker. Where the 123 Kid and Sean Waltman are NOT the same person. Where guys like El Generico and Delirious are actually considered the "normal ones". CHIKARA is more realistic than the Muppets on RAW, and that folks, is just really, really sad.

And yes, I would definitely say that EVOLVE booking the Osirian Porthole, in gimmick, hurts their credibility, based on this same logic.



God, you'd think they were advocating child marriage or something.
If you're going to take this muppet thing this seriously, you're taking all the fun out of watching wrestling, and that defeats the purpose.


James Guttman

Nah, man. It's about what it represents and the way the business has changed to something that mocks what it's supposed to be. I see it as a bigger deal than you do in a big picture sense. I'm not ranting and raving because I don't like the Muppets. As I point out, it goes back to a bigger problem overall.


Mike Johns

Has it ever occurred to ANYONE that maybe THIS BULLSHIT is taking the fun out of wrestling for ME?! Not just me, but a lot of people.

There's suspension of disbelief, and then there's throwing logic out the damn window. This kind of Bullshit is why most people on this board are embarrassed to admit they're a wrestling fan to most of the world. So, yeah, I kind of take them making me look like an idiot for liking wrestling seriously.

I did an audio about this months ago, actually. Not the Muppets thing, but the being embarrassed to be a fan thing, and being sick of it. I got into detail about a recent conversation I happen to have far too often about wrestling, simply because I had a friend notice I was wearing the Edge Farewell Tour T-Shirt, and felt that I needed reminded that wrestling was "fake" and that Edge didn't actually win anything. You know WHY that conversation happens, RYTMAN? Two reasons - one, because, apparently, it's a sin for me to wear a wrestling t-shirt out to karaoke. and two, BECAUSE OF BULLSHIT LIKE THE GODDAMNED MUPPETS BEING TREATED AS IF THEY WERE PEOPLE ON FRIGGING RAW!!!!

So, yeah, I take this seriously. I'll lighten the f**k up when the business decides to stop embarrassing me to the point where I actually have to explain the two shelves of wrestling DVDs, the Jessie McKay, Allison Danger, and Madison Eagles t-shirts, and why the hell my mom thought it was a good idea to get me a John Cena blanket for Christmas last year that's still in the package and I just haven't passed on to an actual Cena fan, yet, to the friends that come over. I'll lighten the f**k up when I don't have to make a conscious effort to be sure I wear the Aerosmith, AC/DC, or Iron Maiden shirts that NO ONE ever says two words about, despite the fact the Maiden shirt depicts a frigging ZOMBIE fighting in the Crimean War, carrying the British Flag as his body continues to decay out to karaoke just so I don't have to have a 40 year old woman feel the need to remind me, a 30 year old man, that wrestling is fake. I'll lighten the f**k up when people stop treated all of us as retarded because the business itself doesn't respect itself enough to take itself seriously enough not to be perceived as retarded!

I'm sick of being treated like an idiot because I like wrestling. And I'm tired of wrestling giving people a reason to treat me like an idiot. So, perhaps, maybe WWE is taking the fun out of this for ME, not the other way around!


This was a very deep and serious edition of Hot Threads. Not so many jokes this time around. So I think I'm going to make a fart joke somewhere. If you've made it this far and are still not a member of the WWI Forum then what are you waiting for? You have to have some thoughts on all of these topics. Why not join a forum that encourages conversation of all things wrestling?


With that we've reached the end of Hot Threads for the current week. I only have two pieces of advice for any of you reading this column right now:

1) If you're reading this and have yet to join the World Wrestling Insanity Forums you really need to. You can join a fantastic community of people and also maybe get your thoughts put out on a website. Granted, when you post it on the forums it will be on a website...this would be a .com.

2) While you're on the World Wrestling Insanity Forums why don't you join The WWI Halloween Costume Contest The rules are simple and it only takes, maybe, 5 minutes out of YOUR MONTH! So go ahead and join for a chance to have fun, and see if you're better at dressing up as something imaginary compared to other people on the internet.

Until next time.....

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